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	<title>Comments on: Red light cameras for Oak Ridge?</title>
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	<link>http://ellensmith.org/blog/2008/03/16/red-light-cameras-for-oak-ridge/</link>
	<description>I&#039;m Ellen Smith, member of the Oak Ridge City Council. Thank you for visiting my blog and reading my views on public and private life in and around Oak Ridge, Tennessee. This website is my own; content here does not represent the official policies or views of the City of Oak Ridge. To add your own comments, click on the topic title to open a comment box. To read posts about a particular topic, scroll down to &#34;Categories&#34; (in the sidebar) or use the &#34;Search&#34; box in the sidebar. Look under &#34;Archives&#34; to see collections of past posts organized by date.</description>
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		<title>By: Ellen Smith</title>
		<link>http://ellensmith.org/blog/2008/03/16/red-light-cameras-for-oak-ridge/comment-page-1/#comment-40161</link>
		<dc:creator>Ellen Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Mar 2010 04:07:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ellensmith.org/blog/2008/03/16/red-light-cameras-for-oak-ridge/#comment-40161</guid>
		<description>There was no City Council action taken (or scheduled) on this topic in March. Fred Childress told Council that he had signed petitions from a large number of people asking for a change. Petitions like those don&#039;t actually force any action to be taken (the city charter and state laws identify only a few very specific things that citizens can do by petition). As far as I know, a majority of the City Council is in support of these cameras, so there&#039;s no value in re-arguing the topic...

As for your ticket, it&#039;s possible that it was a mistake. If I were you I&#039;d ask to see the video of the alleged violation. If there was a mistake, that&#039;s the first step in getting it corrected. Also, it&#039;s possible to ask the city judge to throw out a ticket if you have good reasons -- although there could be additional costs if you contest the ticket, but lose.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There was no City Council action taken (or scheduled) on this topic in March. Fred Childress told Council that he had signed petitions from a large number of people asking for a change. Petitions like those don&#8217;t actually force any action to be taken (the city charter and state laws identify only a few very specific things that citizens can do by petition). As far as I know, a majority of the City Council is in support of these cameras, so there&#8217;s no value in re-arguing the topic&#8230;</p>
<p>As for your ticket, it&#8217;s possible that it was a mistake. If I were you I&#8217;d ask to see the video of the alleged violation. If there was a mistake, that&#8217;s the first step in getting it corrected. Also, it&#8217;s possible to ask the city judge to throw out a ticket if you have good reasons &#8212; although there could be additional costs if you contest the ticket, but lose.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Northern</title>
		<link>http://ellensmith.org/blog/2008/03/16/red-light-cameras-for-oak-ridge/comment-page-1/#comment-40159</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Northern</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Mar 2010 18:52:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ellensmith.org/blog/2008/03/16/red-light-cameras-for-oak-ridge/#comment-40159</guid>
		<description>I under this was to be brought up at the March 17, meeting yo determine if they were going to use this for enforcement and a recommendation would be made April 21. If this is the case why was I given a notice of traffic violation by The Oak Ridge Photo Enforcement Program on February 26? I am 73 years old and have never had a speeding ticket of any kind and people riding with with me say I am usually going to slow. I was taking my daughter to the doctor that day and she says there is no way I could have been speeding. Best regards. You seem like a nice lady trying to do do what is right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I under this was to be brought up at the March 17, meeting yo determine if they were going to use this for enforcement and a recommendation would be made April 21. If this is the case why was I given a notice of traffic violation by The Oak Ridge Photo Enforcement Program on February 26? I am 73 years old and have never had a speeding ticket of any kind and people riding with with me say I am usually going to slow. I was taking my daughter to the doctor that day and she says there is no way I could have been speeding. Best regards. You seem like a nice lady trying to do do what is right.</p>
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		<title>By: Ellen Smith</title>
		<link>http://ellensmith.org/blog/2008/03/16/red-light-cameras-for-oak-ridge/comment-page-1/#comment-37140</link>
		<dc:creator>Ellen Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 04:24:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ellensmith.org/blog/2008/03/16/red-light-cameras-for-oak-ridge/#comment-37140</guid>
		<description>You probably have your answer by now, but I&#039;ll repeat the information. Voting in favor were Beehan, Hayes, Hensley, and Miller. Opposed were Golden, Mosby, and Smith.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You probably have your answer by now, but I&#8217;ll repeat the information. Voting in favor were Beehan, Hayes, Hensley, and Miller. Opposed were Golden, Mosby, and Smith.</p>
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		<title>By: Janet Thomas</title>
		<link>http://ellensmith.org/blog/2008/03/16/red-light-cameras-for-oak-ridge/comment-page-1/#comment-37138</link>
		<dc:creator>Janet Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 18:07:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ellensmith.org/blog/2008/03/16/red-light-cameras-for-oak-ridge/#comment-37138</guid>
		<description>I have just placed a call to the Clerk to find out the names of those who voted FOR the cameras and will vote against them when they come up for election. It is such a shame that the &quot;leaders&quot; of our town (which has so much amazing potential!) consistantly impose their ill conceived decisions on the community that only seem to add to the growing list of reasons why viable good businesses, and quality potential residents find this an undesirable place to live, work and shop.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have just placed a call to the Clerk to find out the names of those who voted FOR the cameras and will vote against them when they come up for election. It is such a shame that the &#8220;leaders&#8221; of our town (which has so much amazing potential!) consistantly impose their ill conceived decisions on the community that only seem to add to the growing list of reasons why viable good businesses, and quality potential residents find this an undesirable place to live, work and shop.</p>
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		<title>By: jim</title>
		<link>http://ellensmith.org/blog/2008/03/16/red-light-cameras-for-oak-ridge/comment-page-1/#comment-36903</link>
		<dc:creator>jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jul 2008 11:24:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ellensmith.org/blog/2008/03/16/red-light-cameras-for-oak-ridge/#comment-36903</guid>
		<description>I have read  a paper presented  at a National health and safety association that  there are cities that do not follow the  traffic association formula  on timing of the amber or yellow light time  before it goes red. It seems  at least  3 or more seconds, depending on width of pavement. What  public interest group is  measuring and double checking  for red light communities or  for that matter due to safety, all communities, that  amber lights  are timed in correct manner per  formula calculations?  If you ask a city  law enforcement  group or city traffic staff, or city manager, or traffic  committee, all of them  are likely to say they  have  it accurate and  its the unsafe drivers  running lights in careless manner, but who is actually  oversighting these light times,  in the interest of both safety or fines and public abuse of  improper  systems?  cityjimmy 7-30-08</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have read  a paper presented  at a National health and safety association that  there are cities that do not follow the  traffic association formula  on timing of the amber or yellow light time  before it goes red. It seems  at least  3 or more seconds, depending on width of pavement. What  public interest group is  measuring and double checking  for red light communities or  for that matter due to safety, all communities, that  amber lights  are timed in correct manner per  formula calculations?  If you ask a city  law enforcement  group or city traffic staff, or city manager, or traffic  committee, all of them  are likely to say they  have  it accurate and  its the unsafe drivers  running lights in careless manner, but who is actually  oversighting these light times,  in the interest of both safety or fines and public abuse of  improper  systems?  cityjimmy 7-30-08</p>
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		<title>By: Ray Kircher</title>
		<link>http://ellensmith.org/blog/2008/03/16/red-light-cameras-for-oak-ridge/comment-page-1/#comment-36217</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray Kircher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Jun 2008 14:32:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ellensmith.org/blog/2008/03/16/red-light-cameras-for-oak-ridge/#comment-36217</guid>
		<description>Timothy, you have it correct. We need to be looking at the safety through OUR statistics and not Knoxville.

This smells of the O&#039;Connor businees grap for revenue. He is really hurting us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Timothy, you have it correct. We need to be looking at the safety through OUR statistics and not Knoxville.</p>
<p>This smells of the O&#8217;Connor businees grap for revenue. He is really hurting us.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy</title>
		<link>http://ellensmith.org/blog/2008/03/16/red-light-cameras-for-oak-ridge/comment-page-1/#comment-36138</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 13:29:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ellensmith.org/blog/2008/03/16/red-light-cameras-for-oak-ridge/#comment-36138</guid>
		<description>I have yet to see anywhere what the actual accident rate statistics are in Oak Ridge. With the multi-page crash reports required by the State to be completed for all accidents, there is a plethora of information relating to the circumstances of these accidents.  How many intersections crashes are caused by someone running a red light? How many are rear end crashes   that are generally related to someone stopping (not running) a red light?  As for speed cameras, how many crash reports indicate speed as factor in  crashes? I am all for safety on our roads, but lets look at the statistics to make sure the behavior that automated enforcement seeks to alter is the behavior that causes accidents.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have yet to see anywhere what the actual accident rate statistics are in Oak Ridge. With the multi-page crash reports required by the State to be completed for all accidents, there is a plethora of information relating to the circumstances of these accidents.  How many intersections crashes are caused by someone running a red light? How many are rear end crashes   that are generally related to someone stopping (not running) a red light?  As for speed cameras, how many crash reports indicate speed as factor in  crashes? I am all for safety on our roads, but lets look at the statistics to make sure the behavior that automated enforcement seeks to alter is the behavior that causes accidents.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Stock</title>
		<link>http://ellensmith.org/blog/2008/03/16/red-light-cameras-for-oak-ridge/comment-page-1/#comment-35827</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Stock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 05:55:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ellensmith.org/blog/2008/03/16/red-light-cameras-for-oak-ridge/#comment-35827</guid>
		<description>I enjoyed reading your original post.  It is obvious you have spent a fair amount of time researching this topic and trying to do what is best for the people and city you represent.  Unfortunately, I donâ€™t think most public officials put enough time into the decisions they make regarding electronic traffic enforcement 
 &amp; other important topics.  And even worse (as evidence of by the many arrests of TN public officials for taking advantage of their  power, accepting bribes, ect. over the past few years) I feel there a many public officials in TN who put their own personal interests (both legal &amp; illegal) ahead of what is best for the people they represent.  This issue being no different.

That being said, let me make a few comments as to why I feel the state of Tennessee and many of its municipalities have been too cavalier and irresponsible in there acceptance of this unproven technology at the expense of TN citizens.

1. Safety.  We all want improved safety.  This is a noble goal.  Unfortunately â€œSafetyâ€ is also a buzz word used by the manufactures and lobbyist of this type of equipment to win the opinion for their products.   They have successfully brainwashed people to believe that electronic traffic enforcement = safety.   There is no convincing scientific evidence supported by unbiased &amp; sound research to support the claim that people are safer when these systems are implemented.  In fact there are many studies now showing that there may be the potential for more harm in some situations.  Until there are sound, unbiased scientific studies that demonstrate consistently that automated electronic traffic enforcement systems  improve the safety of motorists, these devices should not be equated with improved safety.  
The theory of improved safety is inflated by the companies.  In addition surrogate markers such as fewer red light violations donâ€™t necessarily equate to safety as these companies imply.  

2. Influence from Private companies.  Red flex and other companies are not in the business of saving livesâ€¦.. Their purpose is to make money.  You can trade stock in Red flex.  I am afraid these companies have had too much influence with lawmakers in many states, including TN.  It seems that thier lobbying efforts and slick talking have convinced legislators (like R in Knox area who proposed a bill last year to give cities gov the power to use these devices and impose violations as civil penalties )  that there systems improve safety, are accurate, and reasonable alternative to police officers.  It is absurd to believe these companies receive 50% or more of the fines they collect.  If the city truly thinks it needs one of these systems the system should be bought &amp; maintained by the city.  Instead of funneling large amounts of local money to companies around the globe with no interest in the areaâ€¦ keep the money localâ€¦. Let traffic fines stay local and create jobs for new officers.

3 Due Process of Law.  If you receive one of these citations in the mail expect to have your constitutional rights blatantly disregarded.  Exampleâ€¦. TN cities have the power to designate Photo enforced speeding tickets as â€œnon moving civil violation..â€ This empowers the city (and the cam$cam company) to essentially extort money from people who are accused of a violation.  The burden of proof is now on the accused.  This is probably the biggest problem with the whole electronic enforcement issue.  It undermines the whole basis of our legal system and the rights of the accused.  Consider thisâ€¦ If a police were to issue the same citation for speeding in the same place it would be classified as a â€œmoving violationâ€â€¦. This is better for the accused if they felt they were not guiltyâ€¦ at least your constitutional rights are not disregarded   and they could appear in court and have there case heard and even question there accuser if they felt it were necessary.   Iâ€™m not sure who figured this outâ€¦ but it is brilliant for the municipalities who are using this kind of technology to produce $$$$$

3. Error / Calibration â€“ these systems are not perfect.  who ensures calibrationâ€¦.  The company????  

4. Corruptionâ€¦..  with potential for easy revenue there is room for corruption.  Examplesâ€¦ NC fines were being misappropriated.  Many cities have been caught with shortened yellow light times 3/2008,  Chattanooga TN had to refund 8800 tickets  because someone discovered that the yellow light times were shorted that legally allowed at the intersections with theses type devicesâ€¦â€¦ at least 5 other cities have been accused of the same.   There are many more problems in this area

In closing I ask that your continue to research this topic closely.  This is a very important topic that has wide spread implications for public safety, constitutional rights, corruption, and other issues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I enjoyed reading your original post.  It is obvious you have spent a fair amount of time researching this topic and trying to do what is best for the people and city you represent.  Unfortunately, I donâ€™t think most public officials put enough time into the decisions they make regarding electronic traffic enforcement<br />
 &amp; other important topics.  And even worse (as evidence of by the many arrests of TN public officials for taking advantage of their  power, accepting bribes, ect. over the past few years) I feel there a many public officials in TN who put their own personal interests (both legal &amp; illegal) ahead of what is best for the people they represent.  This issue being no different.</p>
<p>That being said, let me make a few comments as to why I feel the state of Tennessee and many of its municipalities have been too cavalier and irresponsible in there acceptance of this unproven technology at the expense of TN citizens.</p>
<p>1. Safety.  We all want improved safety.  This is a noble goal.  Unfortunately â€œSafetyâ€ is also a buzz word used by the manufactures and lobbyist of this type of equipment to win the opinion for their products.   They have successfully brainwashed people to believe that electronic traffic enforcement = safety.   There is no convincing scientific evidence supported by unbiased &amp; sound research to support the claim that people are safer when these systems are implemented.  In fact there are many studies now showing that there may be the potential for more harm in some situations.  Until there are sound, unbiased scientific studies that demonstrate consistently that automated electronic traffic enforcement systems  improve the safety of motorists, these devices should not be equated with improved safety.<br />
The theory of improved safety is inflated by the companies.  In addition surrogate markers such as fewer red light violations donâ€™t necessarily equate to safety as these companies imply.  </p>
<p>2. Influence from Private companies.  Red flex and other companies are not in the business of saving livesâ€¦.. Their purpose is to make money.  You can trade stock in Red flex.  I am afraid these companies have had too much influence with lawmakers in many states, including TN.  It seems that thier lobbying efforts and slick talking have convinced legislators (like R in Knox area who proposed a bill last year to give cities gov the power to use these devices and impose violations as civil penalties )  that there systems improve safety, are accurate, and reasonable alternative to police officers.  It is absurd to believe these companies receive 50% or more of the fines they collect.  If the city truly thinks it needs one of these systems the system should be bought &amp; maintained by the city.  Instead of funneling large amounts of local money to companies around the globe with no interest in the areaâ€¦ keep the money localâ€¦. Let traffic fines stay local and create jobs for new officers.</p>
<p>3 Due Process of Law.  If you receive one of these citations in the mail expect to have your constitutional rights blatantly disregarded.  Exampleâ€¦. TN cities have the power to designate Photo enforced speeding tickets as â€œnon moving civil violation..â€ This empowers the city (and the cam$cam company) to essentially extort money from people who are accused of a violation.  The burden of proof is now on the accused.  This is probably the biggest problem with the whole electronic enforcement issue.  It undermines the whole basis of our legal system and the rights of the accused.  Consider thisâ€¦ If a police were to issue the same citation for speeding in the same place it would be classified as a â€œmoving violationâ€â€¦. This is better for the accused if they felt they were not guiltyâ€¦ at least your constitutional rights are not disregarded   and they could appear in court and have there case heard and even question there accuser if they felt it were necessary.   Iâ€™m not sure who figured this outâ€¦ but it is brilliant for the municipalities who are using this kind of technology to produce $$$$$</p>
<p>3. Error / Calibration â€“ these systems are not perfect.  who ensures calibrationâ€¦.  The company????  </p>
<p>4. Corruptionâ€¦..  with potential for easy revenue there is room for corruption.  Examplesâ€¦ NC fines were being misappropriated.  Many cities have been caught with shortened yellow light times 3/2008,  Chattanooga TN had to refund 8800 tickets  because someone discovered that the yellow light times were shorted that legally allowed at the intersections with theses type devicesâ€¦â€¦ at least 5 other cities have been accused of the same.   There are many more problems in this area</p>
<p>In closing I ask that your continue to research this topic closely.  This is a very important topic that has wide spread implications for public safety, constitutional rights, corruption, and other issues.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray Kircher</title>
		<link>http://ellensmith.org/blog/2008/03/16/red-light-cameras-for-oak-ridge/comment-page-1/#comment-35655</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray Kircher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Mar 2008 22:45:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ellensmith.org/blog/2008/03/16/red-light-cameras-for-oak-ridge/#comment-35655</guid>
		<description>Not to mention that our government would be planning to &quot;fake out&quot; citizens with false or deceptive attempts of security and safety in any department of our city is outright asking for a lawsuit. Another question is what happens to the city if these cameras were removed or shut down overnight? I do see problems with an outside company staying in Oak Ridge? Finally, what will be done with the money the city does collect from these cameras above what is needed?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not to mention that our government would be planning to &#8220;fake out&#8221; citizens with false or deceptive attempts of security and safety in any department of our city is outright asking for a lawsuit. Another question is what happens to the city if these cameras were removed or shut down overnight? I do see problems with an outside company staying in Oak Ridge? Finally, what will be done with the money the city does collect from these cameras above what is needed?</p>
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		<title>By: Ellen Smith</title>
		<link>http://ellensmith.org/blog/2008/03/16/red-light-cameras-for-oak-ridge/comment-page-1/#comment-35654</link>
		<dc:creator>Ellen Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Mar 2008 20:38:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ellensmith.org/blog/2008/03/16/red-light-cameras-for-oak-ridge/#comment-35654</guid>
		<description>Ray: It&#039;s clear that if Oak Ridge installs traffic cameras, their purpose will be expanded and improved traffic enforcement. This is not a money-making measure, and it won&#039;t free up police officers for other duties. Those are perceived benefits, but they don&#039;t seem to reflect reality. (I wouldn&#039;t go so far as to call them &quot;fake&quot; benefits, but they do seem to be illusory benefits.)

Regarding who gets the tickets, I share your understanding the the ticket goes to the person whose name is on the vehicle registration. I expect that to create touchy situations within families, and even touchier situations when the vehicle is registered to an employer (and was being driven by an employee)... Fortunately for vehicle owners, though, tickets will not be reported to insurance companies and will not result in &quot;points&quot; on a driver&#039;s license. I&#039;m curious to find out how effective the collection of fines has been in other Tennessee cities. I&#039;ve seen reports about problems collecting on tickets in California, but that does seem to be due in large part to issues about California&#039;s requirement for identifying the driver.

Trina: Thanks for your thoughts on driver behavior and locations needing monitoring. This is stuff that deserves a lot of discussion before any electronic monitoring program is put in place.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ray: It&#8217;s clear that if Oak Ridge installs traffic cameras, their purpose will be expanded and improved traffic enforcement. This is not a money-making measure, and it won&#8217;t free up police officers for other duties. Those are perceived benefits, but they don&#8217;t seem to reflect reality. (I wouldn&#8217;t go so far as to call them &#8220;fake&#8221; benefits, but they do seem to be illusory benefits.)</p>
<p>Regarding who gets the tickets, I share your understanding the the ticket goes to the person whose name is on the vehicle registration. I expect that to create touchy situations within families, and even touchier situations when the vehicle is registered to an employer (and was being driven by an employee)&#8230; Fortunately for vehicle owners, though, tickets will not be reported to insurance companies and will not result in &#8220;points&#8221; on a driver&#8217;s license. I&#8217;m curious to find out how effective the collection of fines has been in other Tennessee cities. I&#8217;ve seen reports about problems collecting on tickets in California, but that does seem to be due in large part to issues about California&#8217;s requirement for identifying the driver.</p>
<p>Trina: Thanks for your thoughts on driver behavior and locations needing monitoring. This is stuff that deserves a lot of discussion before any electronic monitoring program is put in place.</p>
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